Questions and Answers about Recovery
Question: Experts often say that there is no cure for “schizophrenia” (or similar disorders such as “schizoaffective”): so how is recovery possible?
Answer: It is true that there is no “cure” in the sense of a treatment that can be applied by a professional that reliably makes the problem go away. But it is also true that we have no “cure” for the common cold, and yet fortunately, people do recover from them! In the case of disorders like “schizophrenia,” recovery is less certain, but it is still a reality for many[i]. Those who do recover most often give some credit to other people who helped them believe that recovery was possible. It’s interesting that while recovery from colds happens whether or not we believe it is possible (because our immune system does the work), recovery from disorders like “schizophrenia” may require belief that it is possible, because such recovery typically requires a person’s own effort. People are unlikely to exert this effort if they lack a belief that it may succeed.
Question: Why do you put words like “schizophrenia” and “schizoaffective” in quotes?
Answer: People are often tricked by big words like “schizophrenia” into feeling they are, in Rufus May’s[ii] words, “the passive victims of an active illness.” But feeling like a passive victim is not an attitude that aids in recovery. Instead, it often helps to see words like “schizophrenia” as just labels that psychiatrists use when people have certain experiences and behave in certain ways. (After all, the only way a psychiatrist can make a diagnosis is to ask people about their experiences and notice how they behave: there is no laboratory test.) People typically have the experiences and behave in the ways that get called “schizophrenia” in response to stresses of various kinds; then they get further stressed out by having the odd experiences & by having to deal with the reactions of other people to their communications and behavior. Recovery is often facilitated when people focus directly on how to manage this stress and how to reconsider their points of view and change their communication and their behavior, rather than trying to fight or escape from some abstract entity such as their alleged “schizophrenia.”
Question: What does it mean to recover?
My answer: Full recovery means having regained a meaningful life, no longer having a mental health disability, and no longer being in need of any sort of mental health treatment. This definition of “full recovery” should be contrasted with the definitions used by some who suggest that recovery should be thought of as learning how to have a better life, while continuing to be mentally ill and needing treatment such as medications.[iii] Of course, lesser degrees of recovery can also be very important, and it is important to recognize that a person may find a meaningful life all the way along the journey to full recovery, whether or not that full recovery is ever accomplished. But it is also important to recognize that many people do achieve full recovery, and that it is a realistic goal to work for, and something the mental health system should really be oriented to help people achieve.
(Note that while this definition of full recovery includes “no longer being in need of any sort of mental health treatment” it does not mean that the person must be certain of never needing mental health treatment again in the future – the person might – but this is also a possibility for people who have never been diagnosed.
It is also worth noting that other people have different definitions of recovery, that may emphasize other factors, and these definitions may work better for them! But I think the possibility of people getting to a place where they no longer are disabled or in need of any “treatment” should be widely acknowledged as a possible part of recovery.)
Question: What is the role of medications in recovery?
Answer: Everyone’s story is different, so there is no one answer to this question. But consider the following facts:
- Before medications existed, and currently in cases where people have managed to avoid ever getting medications, people have recovered from “schizophrenia” and similar disorders. (In fact, overall rates of recovery have not increased since medications were introduced, and recovery rates are typically higher in developing countries that have less access to medications.[iv])
- Some people have found that medications were initially helpful for them, but as they learned to take care of themselves in other ways, medications gradually became less necessary and were discontinued.
- Other people have found that medications were never helpful to them, and that recovery was impossible until they got off the medications.
- And some have found that staying on a low dose of medications while they pursue their dreams is what works best for them. Even if they believe it might be possible to learn to do without the medication, attempting to learn to do that is not as important to them as other life goals. While it could be said that they are not “fully recovered” because they still need treatment, it should be pointed out that full recovery is just a possibility, not a requirement that anyone must fulfill in order to have a meaningful life.
Medications are of course what can often make the biggest difference the quickest, and they are heavily promoted by an industry that makes billions of dollars of profits off them, so it is easy to be seduced into believing that they should be the cornerstone of treatment. However, they also come with heavy costs in terms of both subjective and objective negative side effects, and some of these effects can even be fatal.[v] A better approach is to first try alternatives wherever possible, so that at least at times medication use can be avoided altogether. [vi] And then, if alternatives fail to succeed and medication does seem necessary, use as little as possible and continue to search for other ways to improve coping over time so that medications can perhaps be eventually reduced or discontinued.[vii]
Question: If medications only help some of the time and even then are only some of the answer, then what really helps people recover?
Answer: “Schizophrenia” and other “psychotic disorders” typically involve responses to stress, responses that in themselves causes more stress to the person and which then cause reactions from others that increase the stress. Example: a man who suffered traumas in childhood loses his job and can’t find another, then starts hearing voices, fears the voices mean he is mad, then starts yelling at the voices, resulting in being evicted from his apartment, losing his friends, and is labeled as “mentally ill.” So what will help? It might be any number of things. Being around people who seek to understand his experience rather than label him, and who are friendly despite his odd behavior, can be a big start. Learning that voice hearing is a pretty normal response to stress and that there are ways to cope with it can help: this might be learnt in psychotherapy, or through peer support such as in a voice hearer’s group[viii]. Getting help getting housing and back to work can play a huge role in reducing stress. Certain dietary changes may help, as might a variety of practices that improve his ability to handle stressful circumstances, such as mindfulness exercises, yoga, physical exercise, and a long list of others. Once he becomes ready, he might find that therapy or other exercises that help him explore and accept his earlier traumas help reduce his vulnerability to stress in the future. Any of a variety of approaches that increase self understanding, including spiritual approaches, may be helpful. A key part of recovery is often learning that one’s brain does not have to work exactly like everyone else’s in order to be healthy: for example many people find that they continue to hear voices, yet once they accept them and know how to cope, they can move on with their lives without hindrance or need to change that experience.
Question: What kind of things get in the way of recovery?
Answer: Here is a partial list:
- The belief that recovery is not possible
- Failure to take responsibility for working toward recovery: expecting others to make it happen without your help
- Additional stress and trauma, such as that induced by being homeless & without a source of income, or the trauma often induced by forced and disrespectful mental health treatment
- Lack of social support and connection
- Believing that the disorder is simply “biological” and unrelated to stressful events or to how one handles stressful events
- Being labeled and categorized by others. Some say that it is more difficult to recover from mental health stigma than it is to recover from mental health problems themselves
- For many, medications. While medications at some points help some people toward recovery, they can also for interfere with recovery, for example by inducing passivity, social unresponsiveness, inability to think clearly, and failure to get the opportunity to learn that one can handle life without medications.
- Efforts to recover that are made too abruptly. For example, while medications may be causing problems, quitting abruptly may result in withdrawal or other problems that may then cause relapse or descent into even greater difficulties. And while a person may be capable of eventually handling stressful life circumstances, taking on challenges of any sort before one is ready can result in setbacks.
- Being too cautious, going too far to avoid risks. Recovery requires taking modest risks, with “trying, but not too hard.” Being too cautious leads to a continued perception of oneself as incompetent, and to never having the opportunity to learn competence.
Obviously, this is just an introduction to the topic of recovery from “schizophrenia” and similar disorders. To learn more, it can help to read stories of those who have recovered, such as those found at http://bipolarblast.wordpress.com/recovery-stories/
I also encourage you to read various postings on my blog,
where I address a wide variety of issues related to the understanding of psychotic disorders and to recovery, and provide links to other resources.
[i] For a summary of the research on recovery from “schizophrenia” see “Long term follow-up studies”. Also, for a very readable article on some of the myths about “schizophrenia” including the myth that recovery is impossible, written by one of the more prominent researchers, see the “Empirical correction of seven myths” article.
[ii] Rufus May is a psychologist who himself made a full recovery after being diagnosed with “schizophrenia” – check out his website.
[iii] For more explanation of why some attempt to redefine recovery to mean less than really recovered, see my article on that topic.
[iv] A summary of the disappointing results of reliance on medications for treatment can be found in Robert Whitaker’s Anatomy of an Epidemic.
[v]For a summary of the hazards of antipsychotic medications, including the risk of death, and how practice might be different if people were adequately informed about them, see this Full Disclosure article.
[vi] For people who are just beginning to experience psychotic symptoms, simply going to psychotherapy with a knowledgeable therapist can be helpful – see the article cognitive therapy for the prevention of psychosis. And even when problems are more severe, most people can be helped without antipsychotics if proper help is available – see this article on a Finnish approach. Of course, when other forms of help are unavailable, people are often forced to rely on medication sooner.
[vii] See the Harm Reduction Guide to Coming Off Psychiatric Drugs for ideas about how to do this. Also, therapists might want to look at this Therapist’s Guide
[viii] For more information on hearing voices groups, as well as lots of ideas for coping with voices, check out The international community for hearing voices.
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The best website Ive read so far. Great job. it is true that recovery is possibe… I, myself once was on 13 different drugs now i dont take any of them . I do work 2 different jobs. I do drive(not feeling sleepy cus of the drugs) and i am socially connected and with a lovely girlie. The key to success is not to rely on drugs and making yourself believe that you cannot function without them. I could not function while on the drugs cause of the fatigue and of the fact that my thinking was not clear. ppl who are getting off the drugs must be, in my opinion out all the time and believe in theirselves. They can do it. YOu can do it folks!
PS: sorry for the bad use of english. Take care
what a rubbish webpage. all talk no concrete details.
If you want details, check out churchofschizophrenia.i8.com
is treatment of schazophrina with chlorpomazine best?
please tell me.
age 29
living in pakistan
sex male
taking medicine 9 years.
ok
As discussed above, different things work for different people, and so there is no way I know of that a doctor or anyone else can guarantee that any certain treatment or drug will work “best.” And this is just a website that offers general information and discussion, so I don’t aim to tell anyone what will or won’t work for them specifically. But I encourage you to pay attention to what works for you, and try to find people who can help you explore options other than just more drugs forever.
go
offa d planet
no return ticket
no mercy
fuck
double hell
nothing
eventually
flowers
for
us
If I had to pick a neuroleptic (and I am no advocate for neuroleptics) I certainly wouldn’t pick thorazine (chlorpromazine). If you want the thorazine shuffle and a whole host of other side effects this is your drug.
Having said that do NOT contemplate discontinuing this or any other neuroleptic without some medical supervision to do so. I, too, would encourage you to explore the options and to make informed decisions. The first step is do your research. Educate yourself!
Really great ,helpful websites,so much valuable concrete information in details.
Thanks very much ! We really appreciate your effort !
Are there any integrative,alternate clinics/centers that allow young people to try nutritional supplement and cognitive therapy before being forcing medications ?
If no medications seem helpful,what is the next type of treatment for psychosis ?
would repetitive magnetic cranial stimulations help ?
Where to find therapist who deal with psychosis ?
Thanks again,
Warm regards.
In response to Terry’s questions: In most of the world, the first treatment and often the only treatment offered for psychosis is medications. They often are not forced – unless the person is seen as a danger to self or others. But people do feel stuck taking the drugs when that is the only relief offered.
If you live in upper Scandinavia, you would be offered help from a team using the Open Dialogue approach, which often completes treatment without ever using medications. If you live in Alaska, you might be able to get help from the very small Soteria-type project they have there. I’m sure there are a few other alternatives here and there, but not easy to find.
If one’s problem is not too severe, one might be helped by a competent therapist while avoiding medications. One place to find a therapist is through http://www.isps.org/ Check the “local groups” tab to find out if your country has an ISPS chapter.
A third option, also in response to Terry, is to see if there maybe is some sort of self-help group in the area where you live. There’s a – especially in Europe – growing movement called the Hearing Voices Network, that offers support groups for voice hearers. Check out their website: http://www.intervoiceonline.org/. Even if there’s no group nearby where you live, you may find the information at the website helpful.
I am on Abilify but want to get off. However my Psychiatrist does not want me to. I’m trying to find a Dr. who can work with me to come off the Abilify but can still write prescriptions so the withdrawl can be slow and tapered. Having no success references online or referrals to a Dr in the Dallas TX area. Any leads or recommendations???
I want to be clear that I’m not giving any specific advice to any particular person (especially not medical advice, which I can’t give in any case) but I can just report on some options people have used when having a hard time finding someone to help them get off medications.
One is to work harder to find a different prescriber. If one can’t get a referal, just contact various other prescribers to see if one can find a prescriber who is sympathetic to one’s needs.
Another option is to work harder at convincing one’s current prescriber. Does one have a therapist or other professional who can help vouch for one’s readiness? How about friends or family members who might be able to come to the appointment and add a voice advocating for change? Can one ask what the prescriber would need to see that would demonstrate a readiness to try a lower dose?
A third option is just to start slowly reducing the dose (some would say only about 10% at a time, with weeks to evaluate) on one’s own. When pills are being prescribed in too large a quantity in one pill, one can buy a device that chops the pill, etc. One study showed that those who quit without help from their doctors were just as successful on average as those who quit with help (one reason for this may be that many prescribers don’t know much about quitting and often suggest too radical of dose reductions when they are willing to reduce dosages.)
Which ever option you choose be mindful that withdrawl from many psychiatric drugs can cause psychiatric side effects. For example if the dose is reduced to abruptly with antipsychotics tardive psychosis may ensue. You might also note depression or suicidal thought. Remember these are withdrawl effects of the drugs and may not represent your longer term state.
If you decide to go it on your own try to have someone for support, someone you can speak openly with, someone you trust.
I helped my son withdraw from some heavy dosages of multiple drugs a couple of years ago and although a bit of a roller coaster initially it came together. As Ron indicates take lots of time. A 10% reduction per week is definitely enough.
Thanks for the feedback. I’ve done a lot of reading, in particular Dr Breggin’s books, and am aware of the need to go very slow. I’m also aware of the potential withdrawl symptoms. It’s just very frustrating to try and find a Dr who will work with me on this. Like finding a needle in a haystack!
There is a website called http://www.alternativementalhealth.com that has a list of practitioners who will help you withdraw from your meds in your area, or find someone who might. And there is a great blog called http://www.bipolarblast.wordpress.com or Beyond Meds that is a really good resource, not to mention finding recovery stories on http://www.Mindfreedom.org which also is an incredible site for people trying to recover from meds, with all kinds of other resources.
There are a lot of groups out there trying to help people withdraw and deal with the aftereffects, and there are nutritional groups too. Do a search on topics like “withdrawing from psychiatric drugs” or nutritional support for withdrawing psychiatric drugs” or some such and you will find those people out there. I think what Ron Unger says is true and I have heard it from others: “But I think most people who have recovered don’t want to say much about their story – because in order to talk about recovery, one has to talk about having had the disorder, and people often learn that recovery means having to hide having had a disorder, at least to make certain doors open. For a video example, that tells a real life story, go to The Doctor who hears voices at http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5B6D685236A79C41”
I know if I am ever successful in getting off this stuff I will move. Because of my experiences I think of moving out of the country. I have been accused of causing problems in the apartment I lived in, just because I have a mental illenss – I was then evicted. I became homeless which leaves one open to harassment by the police – once one walked into my apartment at 9AM without knocking or a search warrant, and ordered me into their squad car under threat of being handcuffed. I was taken to a mental health center and then hospitalized just cause they knew I was once diagnosed with a mental illness. THis same police department once stopped me while I was out running – some old people drove by in a car, and I said Hi to them while leaning against a tree. They decided I was talking to the tree, called the police, who came and forced me to go to the ER just on these old people’s word. I was held down while I was sleeping by three security officers and injected with so much drugs, three different kinds, that I passed out for five hours.
Yeah, I am ranting. I am furious over what has happened to me and what happens everyday to people like me in this country – USA. This is why we go into hiding after we withdraw and are once again safe and healthy – just because of our history we are liable to be brought to an emergency room or other mental health facility for the smallest situation. If I get hit by a car and the police are called, they will look at my history, see I have been taken to a mental health center before, and that is where they will send me.
I once passed out on a train so they called an ambulance and sent me to a hospital. There they took blood tests, couldnt find anything, lied to me about talking to my brother and a friend (they had actually listened in to two phone calls I had made from there) and then sent me to a psychiatric hospital two hours away, by police escort. The officer arrived in plainsclothes holding handcuffs. I was sitting in there for 8 hours in that ER just waiting for the test results. I never moved from the bed except to go to the bathroom. I wasnt ranting or raving, or hearing voices, or acting out. But this is what happened.
I have had and heard too many stories like this to feel safe in this country. I dont know where to go that is any better. I want an English speaking country cause I want to feel somewhat comfortable. But that would mean the same kind of psychiatric system as we have here and that is what I want to get away from. I know my story sounds like there must be something about me that is causing all these situations. But I assure you, walking into someone’s apartment is never OK and especially by the police, and if there are no problems with a blood test, and the person is sitting quietly and patiently in an ER room, why send them to a psychiatrist?
So there are some reasons why people who are successful getting off these medications just disappear.
Good luck, and if you find a place that is safe to go to, let me know.
I have read so many articles I don’t know who or what to believe, I would like to see some concrete evidence that some thing other than medication well help people with this this disorder, I would like to see from begining to end these results of recovery of any one claiming that they have this illness. because you are getting people hopes up that recovery is possible. Show a video, if you had this talk is cheap , if any one has recovered they would want to shout it to the WORLD!!!!!
Hi D.D.
There are plenty of recovery stories posted on the web – check out http://bipolarblast.wordpress.com/recovery-stories/
But I think most people who have recovered don’t want to say much about their story – because in order to talk about recovery, one has to talk about having had the disorder, and people often learn that recovery means having to hide having had a disorder, at least to make certain doors open. For a video example, that tells a real life story, go to The Doctor who hears voices at http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5B6D685236A79C41
Several more schizophrenia recovery stories belong to Clover Greene, Bernie Owen, Ron Coleman and Peter Bullimore.
Clover has written her autobiography called Escape From Psychiatry (!)
Bernie, an east Londoner, bless him, is all over YouTube shouting about his recovery after years being the mental patient.
Ron Coleman is a mental health coach, who lecture shrinks and shrinkettes around the world on the possibility of recovery from chronic schizophrenia. Ron should know. He spent seven years as a backward patient in Scotland’s toughest mental hospital.
Peter Bullimore is another man living drug-free. He weaned himself off neuroleptics. He was taking enough drugs to “knock out a cow!” The withdrawal process took him two years. Peter is now dedicated to encouraging other mental patients to find recovery, via the mental health magazine that he edits.
As for me.. I tried withdrawing from olanzapine after 14 years. Took it slowly, withdrawing over two years, but sadly relapsed and was hospitalised. Don’t know why it didn’t work for me, but I would like to think I serve as a cautionary reminder that withdrawal can go wrong.
Take care everyone!
Jam Butty
Hi Jam, Thanks for sharing the stories, including your own. I appreciate your cautionary reminder that there is no assurance that even a very slow withdrawal will be successful for everyone.
Of course, to keep it in perspective, it helps to note that even staying on medications provides no guarantee of avoiding relapse. Many people relapse despite taking medications.
I hear what you are saying that you don’t really know why your attempt failed. Madness is too complex for any of us to know for sure why it occurs, but I believe that if you continue to be dissatisfied with the medications, you might be able to come up with at least some good guesses as to why your attempt failed, and some ideas about how it might succeed next time. No guarantees you would get it right, but you would have a decent chance.
There is pressure in some quarters to accept one or two failures in getting off medications as “proof” that medications are necessary for life. In one discussion I was in recently, the history of failed attempts by author Elyn Saks to get off medications was taken by someone as proof that for her, a lifetime of medications was definitely necessary. Here’s what I wrote in response:
“I believe it is presumptuous to conclude that any person definitely couldn’t have recovered without medication, just because they didn’t. The truth is much more complex, we can’t predict with any certainty what would have happened if Ms Saks had continued to work on recovery without turning to medications, because she never took that road so we never found out. A string of failed attempts does not prove that future attempts would have failed as well, because human lives are more complex than that.
“I think this is an important point, because so many people are stuck on medication, doing poorly, but afraid to try stopping because they did even more poorly the last time they tried to stop. The idea that any future attempt to quit would be just as unsuccessful is what keeps them stuck. People need to know that there are a lot of people who did get successfully off drugs after a number of unsuccessful attempts.”
Hi, I have been diagnosed with schizophrenia and treated with medications (beginning with Thorazine) close to the time I became fifteen. I was paranoid schizophrenic. Over the decades have become affective schizophrenic. I am fifty two. My main reason for withdrawing from some of the meds that I am on now, is so if I have a relapse the Doctor and I will not just be adding more meds on more meds.
I have made a one fifths step down from the anti-psychotic– Thiothixene. This has been very successful, having lasted for three to four months. But what I have been given for mood stabilization is vexing. Reductions in Clonazepam (often used for anxiety) have happened twice this year with a chaotic effect on my emotional make-up–anger, depression, and sleeplessness.
The idea that there has to be hope for a full or partial recovery has empowered me to continue the attempts to drop down the doses on meds and getting help through therapy.
Sorry, I am late commenting. I have two things to add about your withdrawal attempt. The first is that my son’s psychiatrist talked about a rule of thumb for withdrawing from psychiatric meds. Her rule of thumb: It takes one year to withdraw for every three years on meds. Roughly speaking, if you’ve been on meds 15 years, the withdrawal process should take five years. By that logic, your withdrawal process may have been too quick. That being said, my son got off his meds according to the rule of thumb, and he relapsed six months later. My belief is that his relapse had nothing to do with being off meds, and more to do with the pressures he was under to get on with his life. (He was off his meds and doing rather well, and my husband and I started talking to him seriously about going back to college. Relapse followed.) So, back he went on meds, but now, three years later, he is again off meds and doing well.) I wouldn’t assume that your relapse necessarily means that you will never be able to go without them. There are other social and emotional complexities involved.
There is hope and people do recover.
There is plenty of evidence to support this fact. An early novel by Joanne Greenberg portrays her recovery from schizophrenia under psychotherapeutic treatment with Freida Fromm-Reichmann. The novel is titled “I Never Promised You a Rose Garden.” The Nobel Laureate John Forbes Nash Jr. whose life was chronicled in the movie “A Beautiful Mind” both recovered and won the Nobel prize. The portrayal in the movie that suggested Nash took psychiatric drugs was incorrect. He recovered without drugs (and I have spoken with him on the subject.) Courtnay Harding has published a follow up study that has researched the longer term outcomes associated with schizophrenia. Harding observed that at least half of those diagnosed with schizophrenia fully recover and that that half are not on psychiatric drugs. (Caution however do not throw your drugs away because there are negative withdrawl effects).
Closer to home, my son was diagnosed with schizophrenia, frequently hospitalized, drugged to the gills, and left hopeless. I undertook intensive psychotherapy with him, on my own, with guidance from Bertram Karon and Jack Rosberg, and he has recovered. He takes no drugs. He experiences no symptoms, he has returned to school, completed his first year of studies with honours and commences second year in September.
People do recover. Appreciate that those who are shouting victory are drowned out by a pharmaceutical machine that generates billions in annual revenues from the sale of psychiatric drugs.
The first step in recovery is distinguishing that you have the choice. You need to be cause in the matter. You need to accept the responsibility for recovery. You need to believe it can be done and you will find the pathway to its accomplishment. The fact that you are looking for answers, commenting, and expressing doubt, all indicate that you are not willing to accept the dismal prognosis that has been offered to you or the person that you care about that has inspired your inquiry. Skepticism is an absolutely wonderful trait to possess at the moment. It indicates that you will take a measured approach. Good Luck!
Hello Alan,
I am in awe of your achievement with your son.
My son, 32, has schizoaffective disorder. I have explored many alternatives to drugs in the last 11 years, without success. Oliver wasn’t really on board. I have been in touch with Bertram Karon who put me on to 2 people in the Uk who might help, but they didn’t. I have read Karon’s book and also read about Jack Rosberg.
I would be so grateful if you could tell me how you went about helping your son. It’s extraordinary.
Many Thanks in advance,
Yvonne Parkins [West Wales]
“recovery from disorders like “schizophrenia” may require belief that it is possible, because such recovery typically requires a person’s own effort. People are unlikely to exert this effort if they lack a belief that it may succeed.” – i agree! i am paranoid schizophrenic and what has kept me going is my belief that i can get better, and i am better. don’t lose hope, especially for the people who support and love you.
- amae
Managing Schizophrenia Blog
Alan wrote: “Appreciate that those who are shouting victory are drowned out by a pharmaceutical machine that generates billions in annual revenues from the sale of psychiatric drugs.”
Yes. And appreciate that not everyone who was labelled with “schizophrenia” and did recover – and I’m one of them, btw, and recovered without ever having taken as much as one single pill – wishes to shout victory, due to the massive discrimination in society against people who received this label, recovered or not.
Also, check out Soteria (or watch this video) and Open Dialog, and find lots of people talking about their experience with “schizophrenia” and their recovery at Madness Radio.
Marian…thanks and I do appreciate that those who have been labelled wish to disassociate with the label. Of course! My view is schizophrenia does not exist. A belief system prevails and beliefs are capable of being transformed. The distinction you have provided is much appreciated.
MSB… you are you. You are whomever you choose to be. I doubt you have assigned your own label (paranoid schizophrenic). Someone else has assigned this label. The limiting effects of the label are much like a parent telling a child he or she is stupid. The child grows up believing they are stupid and this becomes a limiting belief that restrains the child from realizing his or her full potential.
I suggest that most of us are prone to some form of excess if we do not manage our beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors.
Beliefs are pretty powerful in forming personalities and illnesses. I believe schizophrenia exists and is biochemical. I also believe the course of this illness has everything to do with how one experiences their illness and interprets it and their beliefs about it. I take meds for this illness and feel neutral which is how it is supposed to be if the meds work right. One of the most important tools in overcoming this illness is cognitive behavioral therapy. Another tool is creativity. Another tool is humor. The absence of psychiatric assault, stigma and general ignorance is also important in the recovery from this illness.
I just completed On Gratitude which is the adventures of a schizophrenic in recovery from nicotine. This related topic you might enjoy deals with the emotional effects and works with beliefs about nicotine in the 4th year of recovery. Delightful. To find out more visit my website at psyche1902.com. From there on pages 1 and 2 you will get a little slideshow, the release announcement for the book and some other interesting things to see. True story. Heal Responsibly, Jean Manthei, MA, LPC, CACIII
Jean, I agree with you that finding the right beliefs is important, as are humor, creativity, freedom from assault & stigma, and getting free of nicotine, which it sounds like you’ve done a lot of work on! But I have my doubts about some of your other statements, and I wonder about your basis for believing in them.
Certainly people exist who behave in a way that makes other people say they have “schizophrenia” but what exactly does it mean to say that “schizophrenia” itself exists? Where can one see a “schizophrenia?” What is it made out of? Is there any reason to believe that everyone who behaves in a way that gets labled “schizophrenia” has the exact same cause for their behavior?
Simularily, I believe that our bodies are biochemical, which means that everything we think, do, and feel has a biochemical aspect. But we don’t usually say that “spirituality is biochemical” or “being a college student is biochemical” because we are aware that much more than biochemistry is involved, and after all there is no biochemical test for who is spiritual, etc., just as their is no biochemical test to determine who has “schizophrenia.” So what does it mean to say that “schizophrenia” is biochemical?
Finally, you say that you “feel neutral” and take this as how it is “supposed to be.” I know that antipsychotics tend to increase indifference, but I don’t believe this is how humans are “supposed to be.” Instead, it’s great that we can get enraged about injustice, passionate about art, thrilled with adventure, fearful of danger, etc. Certainly when people are getting over-excited, in a bad way, about the wrong things, being flat can feel like a relief, but it isn’t a long term solution for how to be a successful human being. That’s one reason why antipsychotics for life don’t seem to be an effective solution to the problem of psychotic experience.
umn, schizophrenic for the last 7 years ocd tourettes depression add bipolar borderline personality disorder have all been diagnosed at some stage or another however now apparently i’m magically cured i’m to stop taking meds diagnosis is to be taken away loss of pension ok so i’m doing pretty well..
but at the same time i’m falling to bits i mean i’ve been on haloperidol a mans dose from the age 8-14 ritolen dex anphetamin tegratol sertraline zuclothixol depo solian largactal favarin vallium the purple ones the white ones the black ones i think they where luvox dunno, 14-17 i was med free 17 i got sertraline again i’m 26 now nearly 27 i’ve missed a whole heap of drugs here i dont think i’m physically capable of working my average day consists of waking up and dozing off again and i’m going to lose my pension is there a diagnoses called drug fucked?
It’s not an abnormality of the brain. It’s caused by some forms of signals sent from the outside of the brain to disturb brain functions. Researchers will never know the true causes when they look at only the inside of the brain. The problem is that it’s very difficult or impossible to know what are the sources of the signals and where they are. I notice that when I obeyed whatever the signals forced me to do the signals strengthen and when I successfully disobey the signals, the sources seem to be destroyed. Once I knew this, I began disobeying whatever the signals forced me to do or to think. That works. Currently, there are only few sources left to be destroyed.
I watched “My Name Is Alan and I Paint Pictures”, about a Paranoid Schizophrenic artist Alan Streets. The film addresses the treatment and diagnosis of Paranoid Schizophrenia and the therapeutic benefits of art for mental illness. Alan Streets is deeply affected with Paranoid Schizophrenic and he is unable to interact with the gallery establishment. His paintings are instead sold on his website at http://www.alanstreetsstore.com.The documentary “My Name Is Alan and I Paint Pictures”, can be rented on Netflix or previewed at http://mynameisalan.com/
Ron, I think that thoughts come from chemicals that are fired from neurons and that with schizophrenia you might have an excess of say dopamine (which causes one to hear voices and experiences distortions of logic). There may be different levels of impairment with this and I think early intervention and staying on one’s medications is paramount. People will sometimes think “Oh I’m feeling alright so I don’t need these meds” and stop taking them and then begin to show signs and symptoms. This can come from abruptly stopping meds without being monitored by a psychiatrist. We know that stressors in the environment can sometimes trigger this illness where otherwise it might not occur, but it is biochemical as opposed to environmental. You don’t get it from mothers giving double messages but those don’t help a whole lot either from anyone. How do you see it? How do you know it exists? What is the test for it? I
think the literature in the psychiatric field has some pretty good twin studies that prove it may be inherited. Certainly early intervention, education about your illness when you become aware of it, getting good treatment from a provider-psychiatrist and psychotherapist you trust and respect is important and following doctor’s orders.
My affect isn’t flat because I’m on my meds. I get worked up about things just the way normies do. I feel. I’m not a zombie and you’re not supposed to be doing the Haldol Shuffle. You’re supposed to function and all the meds do is reduce the symptoms so that you can feel and think. I’m also a clinicician–if I was alexythymic and had no feelings and couldn’t think they wouldn’t let me have come this far.
Hi Jean Marie,
While you say “thoughts come from chemicals” I think it is much more accurate to say that all of our thoughts come from complex interactions between our biology and our biochemistry and our environment, and there is no reason to think the thoughts of those diagnosed with schizophrenia have a completely different source than the thoughts of those not so diagnosed.
You say that “staying on one’s medications is paramount” – how do you reconcile this statement with evidence that many people get off medications completely and do quite well (and in fact a much higher percentage of those who have gotten off medication show recovery compared to those who stay on medication: see Harrow’s article http://psychrights.org/research/Digest/NLPs/OutcomeFactors.pdf )?
A lot of what you are saying sounds dogmatic – like the assertion that the problem is “biochemical as opposed to environmental.” Certainly, biochemistry is involved, but it is also involved in all human responses. And there are some twin studies that certainly strongly suggest that some people are more vunerable than others (though they are not beyond criticism, see http://bit.ly/dxSRTf) Given all the evidence that early trauma especially contributes to risk of psychosis (see http://www.jpgmonline.com/text.asp?2008/54/4/287/41437 ) , it seems remarkably insensitive to insist that psychosis is always just “biochemical.”
I’m happy you have been able to find a rewarding life while taking antipsychotics. However, I encourage you to consider the possibility that this may not work for everyone, and that for many, learning how to get off the antipsychotics safely may be much more helpful. And also that it may be helpful for many to consider the impact of life events, rather than assuming a biological defect.
I’d say, if thoughts really came from chemicals, the world would make no sense, meaning wouldn’t be possible.
As much as biopsychiatry would have us believe otherwise, we have yet to figure out what a thought is…. Nobody knows.
They’re real…. That’s for sure.
And the ones we focus on, the ones we allow to stay in our minds are who we become… That’s what I believe.
I tend to think they have as much a spiritual source as anything else.
Are they chemical…. I suppose, but it would seem that they must be so much MORE than chemical, at the same time.
I think that’s how all of this works, really…. No matter how much we learn about the brain, there will always be a mystery to all of this… That’s how I see it.
Duane
Everyone is different, My brother was diagnosed with schizophrenia about fifteen years ago after slowly becoming more paranoid a few years before this. It got to the point that he was running through the city to get away from the demons that where chasing him and when he was taken into police custody they contacted the emergency mental health response team and thus his life on medication started. When my brother is on medication he leads a stable life and is almost like his old self 20 years ago. When he is not on medication his life slowly goes to pieces.
One reason he occassionally stops taking his medication is that he has attended some of these talks which say that some people are able to live free of medication but what he takes away from these meetings is that Doctors are only interested in pumping you with drugs and are not interested in treating you as a whole. My brother is unable to discern that maybe only a subgroup of people are able to do this and has since decided that he will not see a Doctors.
I tell you this because the are downsides to advocating a path to a medication free management of schizophrenia even if it is suitable for some people as others that require medication are lured to a false hope. My brother needs his medication as I have seen so many times how he slides back into a state of extreme paranoia without them.
Please consider those that need medication and that not everyone can live without them.
Peter of Perth
Hi Peter,
I certainly agree with you that “everyone is different.” But I wonder what you are proposing be done differently to address that. I hope you aren’t suggesting that we should quit talking about the possibility that people can get off medications, just because some try and fail! This would doom everyone to be told they have to take them forever whether they need them or not – which would of course be a lie for many.
I hear that you have concluded that your brother definitely needs to stay on medications. My conclusions would be more cautious – it is possible that you are right, but also possible that your brother just didn’t get the right assistance in getting off, or he didn’t try it at the right speed and with the right attitude under the right circumstances. There are many stories out there of people who tried to get off unsuccessfully a few times, then tried again and successfully stayed off for decades (up to the present.)
So what to tell people like your brother? I think your brother will find you more credible if you speak the truth to him, and don’t pretend to know what you cannot know for sure. If you do that, he may eventually agree with you that the medications are better than some of the states he has gotten into without them, and he may agree to be very cautious in any attempts to reduce medication in the future, and get more support, to work on achieving more self understanding, and be collaborative with professionals in his attempts.
I know, it’s hard to admit we don’t know for sure what is right, and so it might be hard for you to see that you don’t know for sure that your brother “needs medications” for the rest of his life. But it’s our willingness to be uncertain that opens us up to listening to other points of view, and when you can be uncertain, you come across as more human to others such as your brother, who may then become able to be a little more uncertain about some of his views too. Just a possibility.
Peter,
Ron had some very good advice about how to help your brother. All people are different, one thing I believe that we all have the same is the need to be accepted and understood, in effect to be loved unconditionally. It is difficult to do in the absence of worry and fear about how to help someone we love—and with them harder still. You do not mention if your brother has developed issues physically or otherwise from the drugs. If so, this could be the source of some of his distress. My son on his own tried twice to have a reasonable dialog with his doctor about lowering his meds. Then he asked me to come to support him. It was not a conversation he wanted to have period. And, he said it did not matter what his diagnosis was or is. My son felt disrespected. I went to support him in his desire to have a conversation about the meds. We were both treated disrespectfully. My point is that your brother , like my son, needs to feel respected by others so that he can trust them, including his doctor.
One of the things you said in your comment was that your brother avoids the doctors due to his adopting the belief that all they want is to maintain people with this diagnosis on drugs, regardless of the patients wishes. I find it hard to believe this is just because he heard someone else state this as a truth. Did your brother not have any other issues with taking the meds before he discovered some people find recovery without continuing to take medication?
I ask because in my opinion, believing this of his doctor, really speaks to how powerless your brother seems to feel in the patient doctor relationship. Feeling powerless and disrespected have caused me to feel paranoid.
Have you considered talking to some of the people who have successfully stopped taking meds. It could be a way for you to support and validate your brother; a way to let him know that what he thinks is important to you.
The reality is, people in recovery who used to take meds and no longer do, do not just simply withdraw or stop taking them. There are a variety of other tools that are used in order to facilitate their recovery. The one that is most important to the vast majority, is having at least one person believe in and be supportive of them. Learning the various tools and supportive ways to help your brother from the people have found success could help you and your brother understand each other better. Even if your brother does end up needing to, or deciding to take meds, you and your brother would still have come to understand one another better, and that is always a good thing.
Becky, at least in my opinion, you’ve definitely nailed down the most important thing about successful withdrawal here: support. Each time I hear someone tell about unsuccessful withdrawal, it’s all about one person, the “mentally ill” individual, their “mental illness”, and the drugs. The picture I see drawn by the accounts by or about people going off their “meds” is that of a vacuum in which only the “mentally ill” individual and their “mental illness” are found. Everything else is just one huge gap. When it is this isolation that, more often than not, has driven people mad in the first place, how are they supposed to not go mad again and again as long as they are not given an opportunity to get out of it? And IMO, talking (and thinking) about someone as “mentally ill” is isolating them. No matter how much physical presence from others, family, professionals, etc., as long as someone is seen as the identified mental patient by these others, they’re singled out, isolated. Everybody else could as well be absent, and they actually are absent, psychologically.
Jaakko Seikkula, one of the initiators of Open Dialog in Finland, said in a 2009-interview, filmed by a friend of mine here in Denmark — I think he did a subtitled version, but can’t find it right now — that “psychosis” does not happen in the head, or brain, of the individual. It happens in interpersonal relationships. Personally, I see “psychotic” behavior as a last resort, or a last, desperate attempt if you want, to reach out to others, who have ignored every other attempt the “psychotic” individual previously has made to break out of their isolation, and be seen and heard, respected and understood, by their fellow human beings. It’s a communication problem, and you can’t solve a communication problem by isolating, ignoring, and thus silencing one part of the conversation/interaction. That only denies the problem, and no matter how much denial, it won’t make the problem go away. On the contrary. Overcoming the problem starts with accepting it. Now, usually, we think of acceptance in context with “insight”. The “mentally ill” person is supposed to accept their “mental illness” — and this again is a way of isolating the person. I haven’t met any person in crisis yet, who didn’t accept that there was a problem. If they didn’t accept something, it was the idea that the problem was them, and them alone. Those who really need to accept, is everybody else who’s involved, family, professionals, etc. Overcoming crisis, and thus also getting off of the drugs successfully, starts in the heads of these people. It starts with having these people give up on the, admittedly for them very comfortable, idea that there would be such a thing as “psychosis”, or “schizophrenia”, or “mental illness” in general, understood as an individual problem/an individual, biological disease that has absolutely nothing to do with anybody but the individual who has it, that exists only and solely in the psycho-social vacuum which the “mentally ill” individual has been confined into, with the help of the “mental illness” label.
If you fail this test, you’re not schizophrenic.
Thanks, Jeremy, for the link about the test that indicates “normality” if you fail it! I did a new blog entry on that subject here.
I have thought at times that neuroleptics might be essential as a means to arrestt an acute psychotic break.
I had worked with my son to withdraw the medication previously and he was in a state of recovery for two years. When his brother and I moved and he was left alone in the big city he regressed into a state of psychosis.
His mother advocated returning him to a psychiatric hospital and resuming medication. I rejected this instead bringing him to my home in another major city. A week later, without any medication, he has improved significantly. While he is still experiencing some delusional thoughts he is showing a marked improvement. The key has been trusting him and providing a restful environment where he can obtain proper sleep and nutrition and feel safe and secure. He has slept no less than 16 hours per day the past week. I believe there is a direct relationship between rest and abating acute psychosis.
I suggest there are two reasons why people wish to see their loved one insitutionalized or medicated:
1) They don’t know what else to do.
2) They are motivated by their own fears.
Connecting at a personal level and providing a safe place for respite are far more effective than instituionalization and medication. As my friend Jack Rosberg promotes, it is critical to break into the delusion in order to begin the journey back to a state of normalcy. With this accomplished I am fully confident that not only will my son regain his previous state of recovery but that he will break through to a new level of accomplishment.
Our loved ones need us to believe in them. They don’t need us to medicate and institutionalize them.
I want to share the biblical view of mental illness (New Testament). It says clearly that mental illness is caused by demonic oppression. And the solution is to pray in Jesus’ name for the demons to leave. Jesus’ followers have authority to do this as well. Both physical and mental illnesses are caused by demonic spirits that can be rebuked in Jesus name. I have prayed against physical illnesses and mental opression such as depress– and it has left. So I know from experience that the bible is true.
On the view of where thoughts come from: they come from the spiritual realm, not biology. The word “inspiration” means “a spirit goes into it”. The new testament, james ch 3, says there is “wisdom from above and wisdom from below”; meaning that thoughts come into our heads from both God and the devil. HEARING VOICES is normal. Everyone hears voices, as thoughts in our heads. Most people think it is just their own internal dialogue; but this is error. it is ac tually how God and demons speak to all of us. Calling people schizophrenic because they hear voices is really just a slander of anyone who has spiritual experiences. All christians would be labeled schizophrenic, and most of those who are labeled this are christians, they are not psychotic, and there is nothing to “treat”. Jesus said “my sheep hear my voice” John 10:27 so it is NORMAL christian theology to hear God talk to us, and we are supposed to; it is GOOD, not bad!
What the bible is calling mental illness is someone who is oppressed by demons. The truth of the matter is that everyone is vulnerable to this depending on their environment. Spirits come and go. Some of the criteria that are openings for demonic oppression are: unrepentant sin, bad music, books, art, symbols around one, and using any drugs such as caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, pot, lsd, cocaine, etc and all psych meds. They are all openings for demonic oppression. this is why anti–psychotics actually cause psychosis rather than cure it; the drug handbooks admit that psychosis can be a side effect of the anti-psychotics and anti-depressants. All of the school shooters were taking prozac or anti-psychotics; it didn’t help them; it made them homicidal and suicidal. Demons can attack a person’s thoughts or emotions or bodies. The commenter who wrote about his brother having been running away from demons needs to understand that the solution is not drugs, but PRAYER in Jesus name. All the young man needs to do is accept Christ and rebuke the demons. But staying in an environment that is an opening for them also needs to be addressed. All music is inspired by and transmits spirits; so listening to heavy metal, for instance, would open a person up to demonic oppression. Having books around that are inspired by demonic spirits would also do that. Having any occult paraphernalia like tarot cards, ouija boards are also openings and need to be removed. Many people who have dabbled in the occult have opened themselves to demons and become psychotic; accepting Christ and praying for deliverance is the cure. Anyone who is oppressed by demons could go to a Pentacostal church and ask for prayer. If you have a family member in this condition; that would be a place to take them for help. Psych hospitals are no help at all; all they do is drug people, which keeps infecting them with demons. Furthermore, the hospitals admit they don’t “cure mental illness” they only “manage symptoms”. This is because they are only interested in keeping people on drugs to have a market for them. They brainwash the patients into believing they have a lifelong ilness so they will take the drugs.
I explain all of this in my FREE BOOK on my website http://1prophetspeaks.com. MANUAL FOR TRANSFORMATIONAL HEALING-GOd’s Answer to psychiatry It is a book that God had me write exposing the atheistic view of psychiatry and their toxic drugs. For 50 years, Christians have been slandered by psychiatry as being “schizophrenic”. Most of the patients in psych hospitals are NOT psychotic at all; they just have spiritual experiences that psychiatry thinks are not real; because they define reality from a materialistic non-spiritual world view. Shrinks’ 2nd question is always “do you hear voices?” and any christian who says “Yes God talks to me when I pray” will be thought to be having auditory hallucinations; symptoms of psychosis. Psychiatry is atheism masquerading as science. They claim mental illness is caused by chemical imbalances but this is a LIE to sell drugs; psychiatry has been hijacked by the pharmaceutical industry. I had a director of a hosiptal once admit to me “we don’t know how the drugs work”. This is because it is all lies. If you know anyone who has mental health issues, tell them and their families to read this book.
To any atheists: you can read my articles “Letter to a scientist/atheist” and “on the spiritual vs material” on my website 1prophetspeaks.com
An addendum to my previous post. Another possible reason for mental illness , especially if it runs in families, is that there may be curses working, going down the generations. The sins of one generation can bring curses not only on themselves but their descendants. This can be broken by prayer in Jesus name. To be healed, a person needs to be Saved. They need to accept Christ as their savior, repent of their sins and ask to be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is what it means to be “born again”. Then they can rebuke any demons in jesus name. The bible warns us that if a person is delivered from demons but does not yet have the Holy Spirit, the demons may return and bring more with them and the person will be worse off. So is is important for a person to get saved in order to keep their healing, in addition to the fact that all people need salvation in order to go to heaven.
Physical and mental illnesses are often just a signal to us that we need spiritual healing; they are a sign of spiritual disease, which we can’t see. It is like lights on a dashboard of a car. By taking care of our spiritual condition, we get authority to be healed of the physical emotional and mental situation. Sin needs to be addressed; if it is not, one lacks the authority to be healed. Sexual immorality and unforgiveness are 2 sins that need to be addressed if they are relevant. Jesus warns us that if we don’t forgive men their trespasses against us, God won’t forgive us ours. We can ask the holy Spirit to tell us if there is anything we need to repent of. He will talk to us in our thoughts. He also talks to us by leading us to a scripture in the bible. The Holy Spirit has been on the earth for 2000 years, since jesus sent it from Heaven to be with us. He calls it the “comforter, the teacher” and he says “He will teach you all things, and bring to remembrance all that I have taught you” John 14:26 So the Holy Spirit reminds us of God’s words. That is why it is important to read God’s word, since then the Holy Spirit can remind us of it; and we will recognize that it is God talking to us, since he often quotes his word. If we hear something that contradicts the bible, then that is not god, but a lying spirit, or demon.
I mentioned earlier that having bad books around one can open one up to demonic oppression, or lying spirits. New age books do this. They should be removed. Psychiatry books also do this. When I removed Freud’s books, I felt something around my head leave. Freud was an atheist and a cocaine addict. A lot of his writings were inspired by lying spirits, not God. Philosophy books, atheist books, a lot of science books, are all openings for lying spirits. Any book that contradicts the bible, is an opening for lying spirits. Having those books around is a hindrance for the presence of God. When those books are removed, God’s spirit, His peace, will come. The way to hear from God is by abiding in His presence. The cleanest place to pray is out in nature. Pray somewhere quiet. Any noise, other than worship music, is an opening for other spirits. Even worship music can drown out the voice of God from speaking to us. We listen to worship music to invoke God’s spirit; but then sitting quietly waiting on Him to speak to us is often the way to hear from Him.
Reading the bible, invokes His presence, since His spirit inspired it. Only a King James translation; the more modern ones are corrupted; they leave out scriptures and lack spiritual authority; hence God’s spirit would not rest on them the same way. God’s spirit brings peace. Listening to anointed worship music also invokes God’s presence. You can feel Jesus’ love flooding through you as you listen to it.
You can listen to original worship music on my website
Also I recommend music on youtube by the Vineyard Christian Fellowship, a charismatic church whose worship music is used in many churches. Several songs I recommend are by Brian Doerksen, a Vineyard writer:
Holy and ANNOINTED One
AT THE CROSS
Come Now is the time to worship
You are Here
I definitely agree with you that the issues involved in “madness” are the same issues traditionally addressed by religions, and that spiritual understandings can often be helpful. Unfortunately, they have also at times been unhelpful – for example, I have heard that one of the earliest claims that madness was an illness was made by a leader of a convent who was attempting to protect some of the nuns from the inquisition, which was prepared to see their weirdness as evidence they were in league with Satan.
Some see madness as caused by Satan, who tricks people into thinking and doing what is wrong. Others see madness as caused by faulty chemistry or miswired brain cells, which cause people to think and do what is wrong. Then there are those who think there might be lots of reasons why we get mixed up and think or do things that are wrong – misleading experiences and trauma, tricky relationships and interpersonal betrayal, tangled problems in living, social defeat, sometimes biological factors, and other stuff we might poorly understand including spiritual factors. I’m in agreement with John Read and Jim Geekie, who in their book “Making sense of madness” say that all efforts to come up with simple explanations for madness diminish the richness of what it is to be human and so prone to the experience of the mistakes that get called madness.
Ron, having read all of the above comments and battling the disorder myself, I finally have the balls to come out & speak about it again. Having been diagnosed in 2002 with paranoid schizopphrenia and later with mood swings, my psychiatrist has left the diagnosis immaterial! As one of the ‘recovered’ cases, I stand as one. I am not recovered per se, I deal wih my symptoms every single day constantly in search for a reason to live till the next day arrives. Sometimes its grateful to have ‘highs’ that gives me a reason to sit back and laugh at my lows…(humour does work and is a big part of my self-therapy).& this becomes a good reason for hope. My understanding of such extreme psychosis has taken a different route which the majority would love to disagree and say ‘I am talking Jesus’…I have made a harsh choice of staying off meds for the last 1 yr. Apart from constant relapses throughout my treatment, somehow that ticked my mind and self into finally having to believe that ‘hey, I can do without medications!’…just as they say drugs are addictive (which I have experienced too)…they make you feel dependent…well so is the case with ‘legal drugs’ then! psychologically it does do the same to you. The worst fight is having to answer ‘normal’ people around you who say you have to take your meds and there is no cure for schizophrenia and we will relapse without them. Imagine a hundred voices against your single one! …..and they say ‘controlling voices’ are destructive…haha laugh
the problem is, once a label…you lose your sense of self…your individuality…your personality….having come from an indian background its alot tougher for an indian girl to be an individual in today’s time and the stresses we have can make anyone feel like a schizophrenic.
As you have rightly mentioned every story /case is a different one…it depends on the person, his or her upbringing that played an important role in the personality and how one deals with problems/stresses, the environment…
and I would in my case point to a spiritual dimension.
There’s alot of hard work involved in reaching to such a state that I get told ‘But you don’t look schizo!’….to have me burst out in laughter and ask ‘So crazy people cannot look good??’…this in itself makes me doubt my identity sometimes that I am not taken seriously even as normal or as not…(the existential issues we start encountering as we recover and mix in society is a huge part in recovery which is often ignored…which duely leads us to question where do we belong?…) let’s just ignore that bit as any existential question would drive anyone nuts!
my point here IS ….the entire thought process in our thinking and system and the way people otherwise generally or typically live their lives need to change! …it doesn’t only have to be with us ‘kukus’ …but overall change in mankind..I keep asking and questioning others around me (including my parents to whom I now owe my recovery & they have seen and understood how its worked..).IF YOU KEEP DOING THE SAME THINGS OVER & OVER AGAIN YOU ARE ONLY GOING TO GET THE SAME RESULTS. TO ACHIEVE SOMETHING YOU NEVER HAVE YOU WILL HAVE TO STEP OUTSIDE YOURSELF TO DO SO AS THE ONLY LIMITATIONS ARE THAT WHICH WE PUT ON OURSELVES…..
.this seems pretty romantic to live with …but I ask again…..why not if it helps? What is the worst possible outcome for completely changing your ways?….kill yourself or kill someone else….isn’t this the worst fear?…well if you already know that might just happen , big deal ….either way it will …but if you believe it ! why not take the risk and try something new?….if it proves unworthy no ones going to condemn you compared to what you already are condemned with, right?
majority of us love self-pity, self-sabotage…and all those self-you-knows-…we start expecting someone else to fetch us that glass of water..someone else to lift us up…someone else to ….someone else to…well the blame is somehow easier to live with ….then i say dont crib about it and sit quietly & wallow in your own self-created misery! its very human for us to do so …and thats why recovery stays at ‘its very human to be like this’…..a perception paradox here is if you have delusions of grandiosity and you think you are so-so…then ‘its very human…’ doesn’t work in your logic and philosophical outlook! ….:-)) ….i just think we all have a choice to choose our recovery and how we do it. just don’t go about blaming the whole world for it if you still sit on the couch and just rant and rave!
Hi RV,
It’s interesting what you say about how people think you can’t look good if you’ve been diagnosed with “schizophrenia.” I heard Peter Bullimore talk once about how he had been diagnosed with schizophrenia, then became all disheveled and thought that was just the way it had to be, then showed up at a hearing voices group and noticed that most everyone was looking good! What? He soon learned that one doesn’t have to live down to the negative expectations of others just because one hears voices or whatever.
I also agree with what you say, and with what my friend David Oaks says, that it isn’t just people with mental health diagnoses, who have to change. As David says, normal people with normal lives are ruining the planet for future generations! We have to find a new way of living, and we won’t do that just by sitting around being “normal.”
you certainly summerized it shorter !
) ..n cheers to Mr.Oaks for that!
My thoughts are that life events make you ill, if you are not prepared for them emotionally. I fell in love when I was 18 and this involves dopamine which psychiatrists believe is so important in the development of a mental illness. When my heart was broken and the knife was twisted by her I became ill. This has lasted over ten years with 4 hospital admissions 2 of which happened when I tried to come off the antipsychotics. The time was not right before since I had a lot of underlying anger not only from my life but from how the mental health service had treated me – the anger was released last year in hospital with an almighty shout and I hope the underlying illness has gone. Time will tell if I decide I am strong enough to cope without meds – I believe I could as long as I have people are around me, since as the lady who commented a few boxes above said – isolation can cause it. I believe full recovery is possible for me, if I don’t believe it that option is ruled out – my psychiatrist gives a 70 to 90 per cent chance of relapse if I was to stop the meds – but having secret breaks from this has enabled a lot of suppressed emotion to come out.
Hi Chris, I agree with you that having a good support network is very important when trying to get off medications – there is research that suggests it is one of the most important factors for maintaining physical health as well!
As for any psychiatrist’s ability to predict the odds of a relapse, I would take it with a few “grains of salt.” Keep in mind that some people relapse even while they stay on medications, and that relapse rates for people who go off medication slowly are often found to be not too horribly worse than that. One study I am aware of (Gaebel et all, 2002) found that when people had a planned discontinuation of medication, combined with good monitoring for early signs of relapse and reinstating medications if necessary, then only 42% relapsed – that compared with 38% who relapsed while continuing to take medications. So sure the relapse risk is higher during and within the first year after discontinuation, but if done carefully it doesn’t have to be a lot higher, and can offer the chance of possibly doing much better in the long run if a person gets through the tricky part.
Hi Ron,
Only found my way to your site yesterday and find it truly wonderful, I have bipolar 1 although originally diagnosed schizophrenic in 1980, in the 31yrs with the label I have been more off med’s than on and I’m currently depression free after a classic 6 week hypo-hyper mania in sept/oct last year.
This was the second time I’ve gone through a manic episode med’s free in the hope that I would find some resolution by not interrupting the process, and last year was the 1st time I have had ‘professional’ advice, preferring to keep my own counsel.
The only time I have had auditory or visual hallucinations were 2 separate occasion’s when ‘on’ medication, never off it, and my delusional mania is more like heightened reverie than anything else, although strange coincidences occur while I’m in such a heightened emotional state, which seems to reflect resonance with a wider reality as much as anything.
After 7 years of steady progress including the last 4 of intense reading, I firmly believe that Trauma underlies my mania, as I unconsciously attempt to exit it, by an experience that can re-balance the autonomic (animal) nervous system with sufficient debriefing after the energy has subsided.
In my case I find that the emotionality of mania allows me to ‘approach,’ others and more importantly my own experience of sensation within my body, after a life time of avoidance which possibly goes back to birth.
I recently read Jaak Panksepp’s book “Affective Neuroscience – THE FOUNDATIONS OF HUMAN AND ANIMAL EMOTIONS,” in which he says, “Indeed perhaps what is now the REM state (dreaming) was the original form of waking consciousness in early brain evolution when emotionality was more important than reason” (P, 128.) and “Many have suggested that schizophrenia reflects the release of dreaming processes into the waking state” (P, 127.)
After reading Allan Schore’s “Affect Dysregulation and Disorders of the Self,” and Sivan Tomkins “Exploring Affect – The Selected Writings of Silvan S, Tomkins,” I recently wrote the this article; Mania, Dreams & the Roots of Psychosis: http://bit.ly/esl3kf
Peter Levine’s book “In an Unspoken Voice” has been the final piece of the jigsaw in convincing me about Trauma as the underlying issue, and came along just as I was wondering about my non dip into classic depression after last years delusional mania, which had included myself as King David come to save the world and the only man in history allowed to interpret the book of revelations LOL:))
After not calling on professional help last year and with the expansion of my insights, I don’t feel the familiar sense of shame that so crippled me in the past and perhaps if not triggered, certainly hastened a flight into depressive withdrawal.
Thanks for a great article and a magnificent web resource.
Take care,
bipolarbatesy
Thanks David, for the feedback and especially for sharing your experiences and ideas. I think your story highlights the point that if someone can get through a period of altered state of mind without getting in trouble, and if one works at understanding it, it can lead to growth and recovery rather than a descent into further disorder.
I also think your ideas about the possible connections between “bipolar” experiences and trauma are important.
“It is true that there is no “cure” in the sense of a treatment that can be applied by a professional that reliably makes the problem go away. ”
In my case – you are wrong. I was definitely cured or transformed by treatment applied by a professional.
Your definition of the word “recovery” is good – so if I used your definition then I am “recovered” but that definition has not been universally established as you are well aware.
I simply don’t need that definition. .
I am cured, more than cured, I’ve gone far beyond the ordinary.
My personality is not the same as my uncured personality, that one has been transformed. It is impossible for me to “ungrow”.
Counter to Pharma’s Canon and “Conventional Wisdom” , the fundamental key to facilitate integration is to learn to express and own negative emotions, to celebrate them and use them, to learn to undergo critical self-inspection, to be properly negative to the negative, to transform through pain and to confront stress and fears.
Bit by bit, don’t start with lion taming lol.
It’s not as bad as it sounds, In fact it’s a lot better than being half dead.
Generally, a lot of thing that others don’t want you to do is what makes you well.
Best to get a guide to figure that out.
It’s not easy – but that’s what’s so good about it.
Wish everyone well and healed,
Hi Max,
Thanks for sharing your experience and perspective, and for giving me a chance to clarify my remarks! When I said that there is no “cure” that can be applied by a professional and make the problem reliably go away, I was attempting to speak about something that could make the problem go away for most everyone who has the problem – the way antibiotics do to simple infections by bacteria (that is not yet resistant.) I didn’t mean to imply that there weren’t professional treatments that could in some cases lead to something that could be called a “cure” for that person.
I guess the other thing I wanted to point attention to was how important a person’s own efforts are (unlike in the antibiotic example.) In your example you talked about learning to express and own negative emotions etc., all stuff a professional might help you with but where the real work is yours. I’m glad you did the work.
“that could lead to something that could be called a “cure” for that person.”
No Ron, I do not have “something that could be called a cure” I was CURED, and cured over 30 years ago. I had the life development of classical schizophrenia, I had schizophrenic psychosis, took Schizophrenic meds, etc etc the whole enchilada, and I am no longer in any way schizophrenic.
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I even have my “Bona Fides” as I had two psychiatrists sign me off as no longer needing meds and being fit for work – a result of a strange social services situation.
I wrote about that here:
http://skybluesight.blogspot.com/2011/03/certified-sane.html
.. and from that post perhaps you can see that I am saying you cannot know what society knows, you can’t say if there is a cure for everyone or not – you can only say you don’t know what is out there. It could well be that what worked for me in general principle will work for everyone or is actually working for others and the final reports hitting the shredder as per SOP.
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You did not define “cure ” and perhaps it will help. Cure simply means that that certain types of dysfunction or blockage is gone it doesn’t mean for instance I became the Dali Lama or didn’t make screwed up mistakes in life.
In fact I was not capable of screwing up my life like “normal” people until after I was cured.
There is no need to be afraid of the word “cured”, it does not inherently have exorbitant demands, though one must have the courage to defy the deniers and a very powerful social group they are!
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You also didn’t edit your first post to say “for everyone, though there “cure” is for some people”. So I suspect you don’t say this because you have not had any success in facilitating any cures. Is that correct? In that case you are probably are suspicious of what I am saying.
If you have decided that people can’t be cured or that it is too high to shoot for then you won’t get there. “You can’t win if you don’t buy a ticket.”
In fact no one tried to cure me, nor even assessed me for that, it wasn’t their work – they just practically facilitated growth. As long as people try to complete themselves they will naturally move towards cure,
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From my own experience I have standards by which I evaluate whether a person is cured or has experienced being cured. I have interviewed or read the experiences of many people to evaluate this. I have repudiated for myself that many are fakes or wantta-bes or misguided persons still struggling. I have found very few genuine “cures”, but I have found some. I am thinking now that a great many of spontaneous remissions category ( which I had previously dismissed because they use that word Janus-like word “recovery” night in fact be cured.)
Anyway, I challenge anyone – if they think I haven’t been cured – go ahead question me, interview me – see if I’ve got the right stuff – and the maybe some of the ideas, the result of my psychotherapeutic experience that I am trying to disseminate to others might be heard and help the community.
The compliment you gave me , I heard over 30 years ago in group by an admiring therapist (yes there is an important lesson there) however what I would rather hear from society (an impossible expectation I know) is acknowledgment that I exist for who I truly am.
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Also though the real work was mine, the techniques of emotional growth I learned were external, so it is important to communicate those principles which are actually part of life and not just the psychotherapy group. In that I think those principles are anathema to the current social order and that popular culture infects therapist to the point to actually be counterproductive to cure,
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Many people want to be cured and not knowing that it is possible but hardly anyone understands the paradigm possibly because the ideas seems so unthinkable. Being cured in these modern times means to be outside of civilization. To be cured means to neither belong to the old life, nor to the new. This experience is very unique and only known to a very few at present.
I’m certain that not everyone can be cured the same way I was, but I think there must be many others that do fulfill the same conditions and their lives are being wasted and they are probably having their personalities murdered as mine was. So I think there is a large group there that can be helped.
At first, after I was cured, I thought I was one of a small group .. but as thirty years went by, I never met a single other such person – but of course they would be hiding from exposure like I was….
Also I I have the strong feeling that the principles of what I experienced can be applied generally and that is what I seek to explore. The thing is ,as I talk to and relate to many DSM-V types and every other person as well) I naturally perform personality analysis from my experience and I have never met ANYONE that did not have what I identified as “work points”. Those work points mean I always see something that can be worked on and I know exercises that can be performed to do the work.
From that I am quite aghast to see people confined to psychiatric ghettos when I know there are things that can be tried which have never been tried with these people and I’m fairly certain that the Mental Health community these clients are in contact with are ignorant or uncaring of those work processes.
Hi Max, Just to be clear, I want to make the point that I do believe that any need for mental health treatment can completely go away, it’s just that I tend to call it “full recovery” rather than “cured.” I don’t use the word “cured” because it implies, to me at least, that someone “provided the cure” while I think recovery is more of an internal process, though others can help.
I know of a number of people who meet that criteria for full recovery, so it isn’t just theoretical!
Hello Ron,
To my mind, being cured of a condition labeled SZ does not mean one is finished with neurosis. I did a lot of significant work in psychotherapy after my cure point. I am using the bare bones definition of cure, people are probably afraid to use this word because of some other associations they think it must imply.
it is quite probably that I would have went on to mostly unravel by myself from the initial momentum I acquired in traversing the first barrier but who knows? – - I did a great deal of significant work , reconstructing myself and finishing off neuroses after I was cured.
My best and simplest definition of neurosis to my mind is “unfinished historical business” – history here we are talking about a person’s emotional history usually with father, mother and/or a few others.
Therapy to me is following certain growth principles These Principles are life principles so the internalizations of therapy never stop.
“S” the senior psychotherapist said he could “work” on himself all day in group and never be finished. “Work” or the need for emotional growth never finishes. But once a person knows the work, they don’t need the group.
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But there were at least two significant assessment points for me , one cured of basic blockage and two finished with significant past business, the second point being rather more general. The second point was when I got a feeling of independence or a preference for independence was achieved. would call that I reached a point of mature self-actualization.
I continued to take advantage of the groups long after I needed them just to check myself out and learn more.
My criterion for finishing was basically that the freed resources I had led me to other activities which took priority. It became things like – either go to group or go to an Art class etc.
First I dropped one of the groups a week, then the other, then just took the occasional weekend retreat then finally stopped (because also now they wanted Payment $! – figured I didn’t need it for free anymore- so it then just became another consumer product).
After that I occasionally took part in Gestalt groups, some on to one at various orgs and some such activities just for personal growth and to get a flavour of what else people were doing. I had an idea it would be good to expose myself to some lighter (not so tough) approaches to balance my own social interaction..
Thanks, Max, for your description of your process in recovery. I agree with you that often first people recover enough that they no longer have the problems called “psychosis” but only more mild ones, and that with more work, one gets to where one has no more problems than the average healthy person, but even then, there is still more work that can be done, because we always have issues we could better understand and work with……
I never removed menatl health treatment. This should be a consistent part of all foster children’s lives from the minute they enter the system. Note in the group home description, I talk of menatl health providers coming to the home. Permanency plans refer to the goal of finding a permanent arrangement — so the child is not constantly moving. In a previous blog entry, I clearly advocate constant, stable, and continuous menatl health treatment. The constant moving affects menatl health treatment as well….bounce a kid, they might lose the therapist they have begun trusting.It’s not either-or, its menatl health and medical treatment from day one. -2
Dear Mr. Unger,
This is my first time to your site and I have to say I find your answers straight forward and compassionate. I am the mother of a 33 yo son who has shown signs of bipolar since the age of 21. He has been in and out of college just recently quitting with only five weeks left in term. My husband and I have tried to be supportive but he rejects our world. We have tried to get him to at least try counseling as he is adamant that he will not take any drugs. We don’t want to see him waste another ten years with these extreme mood swings losing friends and getting further behind. As parents we don’t know where to turn. The Soteria program in Alaska sounded promising. If we could get him into a program that didn’t push the drugs I feel he would do well.
Thank you for your site, for listening to those who suffer and their family members who suffer along with them. Sincerely, Mrs. Louise Malcolm
I’m 15 and over the past 6 months have been feeling increasingly less social, and less in touch with reality. I’ve had problems concentrating in class and I’m falling behind with my GCSEs. My self-respect has been almost nothing, and my memory has become much worse. I’ve read massive amounts online about mental illnesses. At first i thought i might have become mildly autistic, with something like asperger’s syndrome. I then read that the age of onset for asperger’s is around 4-8 years old. I kept on searching online for possible illnesses that could be affecting me in such a way. I then read that the age of onset for schizophrenia could be anything from 12-30. This site seems to suggest that schizophrenia is caused by stress. Half a year ago, i was completely happy, with loads of friends, and i was doing well at school. I wasn’t stressed at all. Now, i can barely keep a conversation going, ive stopped talking to most of my best friends, and i’m failing in class. Whatever’s happening to me is not stress-induced, i firmly believe that something has gone seriously wrong with my brain, and it has had nothing to do with things happening in my life. I’ve smoked weed a few times, but loads of my friends smoke weed every week and are fine. I haven’t experienced any delusions of any kind, but the other symptoms ive been experiencing are getting increasingly worse. I hate people who think becoming mentally ill is a good thing, or mentally ill people are ‘awakened’ in some way. What’s happening to me is ruining my life and is steadily getting worse. I’m not interested in treating any symptoms for a small amount of time. The only thing i’m interested in is full recovery, so i can be like i used to be. I’ve read loads about how medication can help you to recover, and how it can stop recovery. I don’t know what to do anymore, so if anyone could suggest anything, please respond. Thank You.
I don’t really try to offer personal advice on a blog, but I can make some general remarks that might be of some use.
One thing I would suggest, strange as it sounds, is to take some fish oil every day for at least a few months. A small study found it made a huge difference in preventing psychosis, and even if it doesn’t help your mind, it might help make you healthier in other ways. http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/02/01/us-fish-oil-idUSTRE6105QQ20100201
Another helpful thing might be to find a counselor who seems capable of understanding you. It might help you figure out patterns you haven’t made sense of yet, or at least help you feel less alone with what is going on.
Stress is a funny thing. Sometimes it’s obvious, sometimes more obscure. Sometimes the stress is coming from conflicts a person isn’t really conscious of, or can’t articulate. Sometimes people get into vicious circles – stress causes the person to react in a certain way, the person gets freaked out that they are reacting in that way, which leads to more stress, etc. Fear of going crazy is a huge stressor, and can lead to people having more “crazy” experiences. So that’s one factor to consider.
It might not hurt to see a doctor about your physical health, to make sure there isn’t a problem on that front that could be aggravating things.
Pot is also a funny substance. It relaxes some people, makes others paranoid (or sometimes the same person has those different effects on different days.) Some get more relaxed, others get energized – a friend of mine used it to get fired up to climb steep mountain trails! Some people find it really messes them up, and should stay a long ways away from it.
Finally, it could be helpful to find ways to respect yourself for doing the best you can every day to deal with what life is throwing your way – I hear you saying your self respect is “almost nothing” and that in itself could be feeding depression that in turn makes it hard to remember stuff or focus on other things. If you figure out how to have compassion toward yourself even when you are going through rough times, you will have a foundation for future mental health, and a way to be “OK” even while you are still dealing with various problems – and given the nature of life, there will pretty much always be problems.
Thanks for the advice. I started feeling better for a while, and started talking to my friends more, for about 2 weeks but over the last few days i think i may be going back to how i was before. It seems my symptoms tend to fluctate every 2 weeks or so from good to bad. I’m still having trouble with my school work, which isn’t just because of inabilty to do the work, it’s also that i’ve stopped caring about my results. think my symptoms, which are bad memory, general decrease in intelligence (i think), inability to concentrate and depression, are getting gradually worse. I’m pretty sure i’m going throught the first stages of schitzophrenia, and i keep finding myself thinking about such random things in my head, and overthinking really insignificant, trivial things, such as adverts on the tv, computer games. I think you’re about right stress making the symptoms worse, because i occasionally have really bad panic attacks because i’m worried about going crazy. When i start to panic, all i can do is to close my eyes and try to calm myself down.
Although i think i probably have shitzophrenia, i am confident that there is light at the end of the tunnel. I believe i can get better, but i know it will most likely take a few years. I’m not sure if i can make it through this last half term of school, but i’ll do my best to. If my symptoms continue to get worse i won’t be able to continue with my gcses, because ive found myself being less and less able to deal with the normal stresses of day-to-day life. luckily, i can still maintain normal conversation with people, so it isn’t immediatly apparent to people that i’m not entirely mentally well.
Btw what’s your opinion on this? http://www.schizophrenia.com/szfacts.htm It suggests that a cure for schitzophrenia could be created by 2013. I’ve read somewhere that schtizophrenia could be caused by the brain damaging itself faster than it can heal itself, so the person with it has symptoms which get worse over time. If scientists could create a drug which could protect the brain, then it could heal completely and the person could go back to normal.
Anyways thanks for the help, it helps a lot to tell someone about my problems, even if its someone i dont even know.
Hey BI, I think, you’ve spent a little too much time at schizophrenia.com, and maybe other websites/communities like that one, i.e. more or less bought out by the pharmaceutical industry. What happens when first-year med students read over the symptom lists in the textbook? All of a sudden they seem to suffer from each and every symptom and ailment listed in the book. What if you don’t suffer from this thing called “schizophrenia”, but from being young — and I suppose you are rather young — which pretty much naturally involves a certain amount of insecurity and questioning, who/what you are, what life’s all about, etc.? The “symptoms” you describe seem to me to point rather to that than to “schizophrenia”. And let’s be honest, “schizophrenia” is just another word for being on the search for oneself. How would you tell your story, if “schizophrenia”/”mental illness” didn’t exist? And what does it mean to you that you can say, you probably have “schizophrenia”? What does the word stand for in your story? What does it allow you to avoid having to tell, or even think about?
My advice: consider hanging out other places than schizophrenia.com and the like. Places where people identify with their labels and the drugs they’re prescribed aren’t healthy to hang out at. You won’t find relief from your suffering there. Only replacement, by something that is far, far worse.
Hi BI
Just a few thoughts. One is along the same lines as what Marion has been saying: it’s pretty easy to read about a scary problem and think you have it, when your problem may really fit some other category better – for example, simple depression often involves concentration problems and loss of ability to think through problems other than the one(s) the person may be obsessing about – so it could certainly make it harder to succeed in school.
Another is I will state my opinion that it is highly unlikely that “schizophrenia” will be “cured” by a drug, since it appears to be too complex for that. But it does appear in most cases it can be prevented, which I say based on data from the Open Dialogue method in northern Finland – after getting that method underway, they found that the rate of new diagnoses of “schizophrenia” had been reduced to only 20% or less of what it was before. What they did was help people who had “psychosis” get over it before they had it long enough to be diagnosed with “schizophrenia” and they did it most often without using antipsychotic drugs at all, instead, they just had meetings and conversations.
One key part of intervention for anyone who might have “psychosis” is to do as much as possible to avoid isolation. People need to be around others who can engage with them about what matters to them.
Maybe your right, Marian, about jumping to conclusions, but i’ve been feeling so mentally unstable recently that i’ve had to research possible explanations of my current state of mind. When i looked at schitzophrenia, i could match many of the strange things i’ve been experiencing to symptoms of schitzophrenia. I do sincerely hope that i do not have schitzophrenia, but i don’t understand how depression or ‘finding oneself’ can have such a deep impact on my character. On the other hand, i don’t know anyone even distantly related to me who has suffered from schitzophrenia, and i’ve had a reasonably calm, happy life up until now, so i don’t really know what could have caused it, if i do have it. I think schitzophrenia has made my story easier to tell, because it may sum up all the strange things i’ve been feeling, and if anything, has comforted me, as i know there are possible treatements for it, and people can get better.
Ron, what you said about schitzophrenia being complex, it may not be as complex as we think. The mind is clearly extremely complex, but there may be a simple reason for it not to be functioning properly, for example, a certain part of the brain not working, which could be fixed, or even replaced. Apparently very little research has been carried out on the brains of schitzophrenic people, and very little money has been spent on research.
While it is true that very little has been spent on humanistic sorts of research, and even successful projects like Soteria had to shut down for lack of funds, there really has been a fortune spent on trying to show that “schizophrenia” is a “biological illness.” For all that effort, the most that has been shown is that many, but not all, people diagnosed with schizophrenia have measurable differences in their brain compared to most, but not all, of those not so diagnosed.
If you look into it a little further, you find that the sorts of differences that have been found to usually exist are similar to differences also often found in the brains of those subjected to childhood trauma. And some of the differences in functioning that are found are similar to differences found in people who tend to be more creative.
There’s a lot of evidence that people who are abused as children are more likely to get a “schizophrenia” diagnosis later. And there’s evidence that family members of people who are successfully creative are more likely to be diagnosed with things like “schizophrenia.”
While any connection between creativity and trauma has got to be complex, it seems that there are some – for one, trauma throws people out of their usual zone and forces people to call on resources they might have known they had. If you read stories of people who have been through trauma, and then got lost in psychosis, and then found their way back and made sense of what happened, you see this. Check out the story at http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nzherald.co.nz%2Fnz%2Fnews%2Farticle.cfm%3Fc_id%3D1%26objectid%3D10730081&h=68ae7
So no, I don’t think there is a pill that is going to “fix” some of the more complex ways people go “off track” whether that is from stress and trauma or just from having a nature that tends to wander off track. The fix I think we need is better ways of connecting with people who may have wandered, and listening to people like Ron Coleman (featured in the story linked to above) who have been there and who have some ideas of how to cope.
Ok, thanks for the information. If I started hearing voices, i’m not sure if i would want to go on living. In the last few months I have been through hell, but i can’t imagine what hearing voices would do to me. I’m not sure i could learn to live with halucinatory symptoms. It’s true that talking to people about how i feel helps a lot, but i’m really more interested in finding something which can make make my symptoms go away rather than learning to live with them. I don’t really care what that something is, wether it’s therapy, or pills, but i want something that can permanently help me. Apparently, the passage of time can help ‘extreme states of mind’ to pass. After i finish my gcses i probably wont do a-levels at school, ill just stay at home in a completely stress-free environment for a few months to see if i improve at all. I would go to pretty much any length to go back to how i was a year ago, and if you could suggest anything which may actually get rid of the symptoms rather than help me to live with them i would be willing to try it. What’s your view on this? http://www.4optimallife.com/Alternative-Medicines-Cures-For-Schizophrenia-Mental-Illness.html
Thanks again, the help and information you have given me so far has been very useful.
There is a saying within some schools of psychotherapy – “the more you want to get rid of it, the more you have it.” The problem is that when we are trying to get rid of something like anxiety, or even voices, it may intensify as a direct result of our efforts to get rid of it. While if we accept it without resistance and then gradually shift our attention to more important things, it may become totally inconsequential or even fade away from conscious view. Or it may be re-interpreted as being something useful – for example there is evidence that most everyone experiences high emotional arousal before a difficult yet important social event, but some interpret it as “anxiety” and others as “excitement.”
One thing a person could ask themselves is, why is it so important to “get rid” of something? Is it possible that the belief that one needs to “get rid” of it is just a mistake? Is it possible that the thing you are trying to “get rid” of could actually be useful if you found the right way of working with it?
There’s more on this theme at http://bit.ly/mxfohv
As for the orthomolecular approach to mental disturbances, I can’t say I have looked into them much. I do find some of their claims pretty over-rated, as when the allege that “schizophrenia” is just a “biochemical imbalance” (they mean a nutritional imbalance, not the standard excess of dopamine.) I think the evidence shows it is much more complex than that, with one clue being the fact that so many people recover without bothering to follow those nutritional approaches, and psychosocial changes can make a huge difference. With that said,, if a person wants to cope well with stress, getting nutrition right, and avoiding food one is allergic to, and all the stuff the nutritional people talk about can easily be helpful. I think there are lots of “legs” to our mental health, and when you strengthen any one, you may be closer to making it all work.
Finding oneself sounds so easy. It isn’t. A lot of people think, if only they pass this or that exam, get this or that job, earn so and so much money, so that they can buy this and that, they’ve found themselves. And then, when they’ve passed the exam, got the job, have earned the money, and bought the stuff, they wonder why they still feel kind of empty inside, dissatisfied, maybe even depressed.
Finding oneself is a life-long process, or journey. The bad news is that as long as we haven’t found ourselves we suffer. We suffer from what Kierkegaard called “the sickness unto death”. The good news is that it only is a sickness as long as we think it is, and live in despair. Just as “schizophrenia”, and “mental illness” in general, only exists as long as we think it does. The invention of the concept of “mental illness” as real, medical conditions is the logic result of the idea that who we are in the world, nothing more, nothing less, is who we are.
If you move beyond this rather simplistic view of what life is, what the self is, that, although the basics are a lot older, Descartes eventually prepared the way for with his statement Cogito ergo sum (I think, therefor I am), you’ll find that beyond this simplistic idea “mental illness” cannot exist. It is “I” who is “mentally ill”, not the self. And “I” is only “mentally ill”, if “I” thinks it is. It’s a choice, not inevitable fate. But if “I” has learned that the self is the enemy — and this is what trauma does, it teaches “I” to shun the self, respectively fight it — it will often choose to label whatever comes from the place of the self a “symptom” of “mental illness”. And this then makes it possible, even logically necessary, to fight the self, and oppress it, for instance with drugs as the weapon of choice. The sad thing is that this war can’t be won. If we find a “treatment”, drug or other, that “cures schizophrenia”, and other “mental illness”, once and for all, this “treatment” will at the same time eradicate ourselves, or our selves. It is the concept of “mental illness” itself that definitely has turned what indeed is life, the search for oneself, into “the sickness unto death”.
As for hearing voices — you already hear them: Cogito, I think, or “I” thinks in you. It is this “I” ‘s thoughts that some people hear as voices, as “auditory hallucinations”. And since I can read your comments here, there must be an “I” inside you, thinking and writing its thoughts down in the comment field.
It is not about learning to live with a “mental illness”, with endless suffering and despair. It is about recognizing the self, becoming it, and thus overcoming suffering and despair.
I heard that it takes up to 12 months for psychosis to pass when one abuses drugs that cause psychosis or brings it on mentally, I thought so many strange things, I thought a thousand conspiracies, I know Psychiatrists know that people (patients) who suffer a psychosis period just like most drug users do hear it all, I thought drug dealers were out to kill me, I thought police were trying to set me up, I thought the worst of the worst so I secluded myself nearly all the time, afraid to go outside, sometimes I would get the energy to go out, have fun, dance, have a few drinks, I have thought so many things of the worse that would happen in a psychosis period, now that I have stopped using drugs, I am realizing more and more that all the things I was imaginatively paranoid about in my mind are not happening, I guess it’s obvious that when someone has had a life of always being worried about things or on the wrong path a psychosis period when abusing drugs can bring up all those old fears of things that have been dealt with and hanging with all the wrong people who make you paranoid that foundation of paranoia still is in ones mind so the imagination builds the paranoia from those many memories then just gets over paranoid thinking the worst, now I am realizing so much more that all the things I was paranoid about are realistically not occurring, I know that because nearly 3 years ago I dealt with my legal issues, appeared in court twice, there would be absolutely no reason why police would be following me around now or drug dealers wanted to hurt me or people who may be apart of something bigger in a bad way would be trying to hurt me, it’s amazing how a psychosis can make you be paranoid about a million things that are more than likely just not true, I suppose it all comes down to ones past history of a thousand real things that one has experienced on ones past path with many other people, when I’ve been in a psychosis period I’ve been so scared in the past but why should have felt scared or worried someone or something of a thousand conspiracies were going to really hurt me, I mean I’ve never been violent to anyone or charged with a violent offense with people, everybody I’ve socialized with in my life who were mostly lots of bad people in the hundreds on a wrong path just like I was years ago, I was always warm, kind, loving which is my nature unless like if I was in a fight face to face someone attacked me in person I would defend myself just like anyone would but in very few situations like that I’ve only intimidated so the worst I’ve done I can think of which I know is to be true is really voice my opinions to lots of people for the past 5 years more and more of what I do not like or something that scares me, so I suppose in my adult years I’ve gotten more mature, so I guess the only thing that bothers me that makes me paranoid is being a someone who talks about other peoples personal business affairs which may be on the very wrong path so in a paranoid psychosis period for me that has been the only thing that really made me paranoid that branched off following many paranoid conspiracies, I’m feeling so much better now, I do not know about millions of other people who have suffered psychosis have done to get therapy, I know one thing is for sure for me taking drugs is a big NO, I am clean of drugs completely now so I feel that is a great accomplishment, I do feel more therapy is required for me to interpret things in my life or around me correctly, not misinterpret a thousand things well more importantly learn skills on how to heal my past since I was a child, that’s why I have BPD, so I guess now I know with any strange things that I have misinterpreted like what I stated previously here is are just incorrect if I feel that way in the slightest when I go outside because there are thousands of things going on when everybody walks out the door it’s how we interpret things, I guess I’ve always been hyper alert, now I know never to take any misinterpretations of thousands of things incorrectly, I guess that happens as a result of myself always being abused physically or mentally in my childhood, teenage years then off and on in my adult years, I feel very confident now that no one will ever be able to manipulate me again or I do not feel the need to manipulate anyone else I only do have ever done that because I thought a thousand conspiracies as my psychosis has passed by a lot more I feel very confident that I will not misinterpret many things, having BPD I am always hyper alert so I guess I can just take all the misinterpretations as entertainment that I just shouldn’t be concerned about, I am feeling more confident now to go out, have fun, meet new people, when misinterpretations occur I just need to ignore all those many things, now that my psychosis period is passing I so much more confident in dealing with my paranoia that is apart of my BPD which is GREAT NEWS FOR ME, I hope other people on here writing on this blog know that psychosis passes by, just stop using drugs please believe me it’s worth it, find something like medication to handle the anxiety, depression, paranoia or if you have another mental illness like I do BPD which is a combination of illnesses seek medical help from a psychiatrist or your local Dr, talk to your Dr about how you are feeling, what treatments, medication are available, most of all ask for help in those kinds of ways and things will get a lot better in your life, I think my biggest problem was always thinking everything in life was about me a million things but really I am only one human being just like you with many human beings all around us, so please cheer up, feel confident that you have the power to get the help you need, if you are suffering psychosis now please believe me stay away from drugs it will only make it worse as in procrastinate the thousands of misinterpretations and the thousand conspiracy theories millions of people who have had or have psychosis come up with in our minds, on that note… things GET BETTER, I know for me now I feel a lot better, which you will feel too when you or your family member or friend gets help, asks for help! All The Best, Christian
Whatever you do, don’t do drugs!!! on the one hand — and this far I couldn’t agree more –, and then, go see a psychiatrist, or other medical professional, who can prescribe, uhm, yah, drugs…
Psych drugs have about the same potential to make you go mad/trigger “psychosis” as recreational drugs have. Just sayin’.
Hi Christian, I think your message, that “things [can] get better” is a very important one. There’s a campaign on the internet within the gay movement to post videos on the subject that “it gets better” and we need something like that within mental health as well. My friend Hugh Massengil has a plan to get something like that started, working with MindFreedom. (For a little about Hugh, see
http://voices-of-recovery-schizophrenia.blogspot.com/2008/08/hugh-massengill-madness-is-doorway-we.html )
As for your idea that people need to ask for help – that is tricky in the mental health field, because not all help that people offer is really helpful, and some is horribly destructive. So what is really important is to look for help from people who are open to feedback about whether their “help” is really working or not. I wish we had the kind of mental health system where one could be sure that help offered would be flexible and really likely to be helpful, but we aren’t there yet.
I forgot to mention, that anyone who knows anyone close to you or if it is you going through psychosis or has a mental illness where paranoia is attached to it as well, please advise yourself or your close one that do not go into chat rooms or social avenues on the internet just because the things like paranoid misinterpretations outside when you or your close one experiences we you or close one walks out the door in public does not mean those misinterpretations will not happen on the internet, I have chosen now not to go on any internet social avenues for 6 months at least which I will abide by that decision as it is best for me now that I realize that a lot more!
How do psychiatrists justify their jobs???? Amazing.
Individuality should be something one strives for, not classified as a mental disorder. It has been proven throughout history that collective socialism is dangerous for society. People in large groups often tend to gravitate towards negative thoughts and tend to push for perverse ideas as they become the whole of one. In other words they tend to think alike. For instance, a friend sees a blue sports car and thinks it’s just the most awesome vehicle she has ever seen, she reports this to her “friends” and quite a few like it too. Pretty soon said sports cars profits rise from sales based on opinion.
So no, never think for yourself, of course you need government, and big business and the healthcare industry to do that for you. Why? Because it benefits their pocketbooks. Duh! Hitler got started the same way.
We perpetually as human beings, tend to repeat history, over and over and over again. No one noticed that Hilter wasn’t blond, it was completely missed by the majority of society, yet he was supposedly promoting blond hair and blue eyes? He had neither folks! How easily the masses are deceived. No critical, individual thinking skills are expected from the masses. That would be a mental disorder. There was heavy sarcasm dripping off of that last sentence.
Another example of “collective” thinking is found in the DSM in which it had classified homosexuality as a mental disorder, of course their accusations of psychosis changed drastically when the gay rights activists started making an issue of it.
Once again you cannot be an individual unless a majority group tells you so.
Why do you think you are spammed every day on your television sets with tons of commercials? Have you ever
counted how many commercials there are during one show? Now get off your butts and go buy the things that big pharma and the industrialists tell you to. Getting the picture yet?
Individuality vs. Herd Conformity (Erich Fromm), which will you choose?
As the mother of a schizophrenic son I want to help rather than hinder his recovery. At present he wishes to separate himself from both my husband and myself. Do I just wait and hope for his recovery? Can I be involved in any way to assist him? He hears voices and says life is not worth living. It feels so sad to me – I want for him a contented life full of daily joy.
Hi June,
It certainly is difficult to be in your position. You want to help your son, but he wants to break away: it is perhaps that “young adult” need to break away from the parents that still exists even in young people who are having problems.
Researchers have found that it is definitely possible for parents to be “overinvolved” in the lives of their children struggling with psychosis, and this causes a lot of problems and increased risk of relapse. At the same time, there are often ways to be helpful. And of course, each person is unique in what they want or will accept. Even if your son doesn’t want to be involved in family therapy, you and your husband might want to go to a therapist who knows something about psychosis, and explore with that person what makes sense to do in your situation. (One place to look for a possible therapist is the ISPS-US website http://www.isps-us.org/ , which has a members section organized by state.)
Also, it is also often possible to point your child in a good direction just by pointing them toward people, films, books, etc. that may be helpful to them. For example for someone demoralized by voices, they may be helped by watching a great story of recovery from voices on video, http://www.workingtorecovery.co.uk/products-page/dvds/knowing-you-knowing-you or the book at http://www.amazon.co.uk/Living-Voices-50-Stories-Recovery/dp/1906254222
My son is 50 years of age. I trained as a Counsellor some years ago and was a tutor in listening skills for Liverpool University, W. E. A. and various charities such as Cruse, Gingerbread etc. so I have a good support network for myself.
For some years we have lived miles away from our three sons – two in the North of England one in the South. We have tended to see each one about three times a year and kept in touch by e-mail in between. We have tried to treat them equally but he feels he is the least visited, the least favoured, the least loved. I still find this sad.
He has had psychiatric support for many years and is involved with a group who have been supporting him whilst he has withdrawn from the prescribed drugs which he has had for some years.
Perhaps I did not explain the situation clearly – thanks for replying.
Maybe I didn’t show you the situation clearly before. Thanks for replying – at least you care.
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June, although Ron writes “young people”, age doesn’t really matter. Or at least not the person’s age counted in years. What matters is maturity, how old somebody is on the inside, so to speak. And even a 50-year-old can be 3 or 14 years old on the inside. If they got stuck somewhere in their individuation process. What psychiatry condescendingly calls “regression” is the attempt to, eventually, and disregarded your age in years, complete an individuation process that should have been completed when you actually were a young person. You have to go back to the child inside who got stuck, frozen in terror, help him work through whatever caused the terror, and help him let go of it, so that he can grow up, or he’ll remain a young person, a child, a toddler, an infant, even if he’s 50 years of age. Look at how “psychotic” people behave. Certainly people would be concerned about that kind of behavior in a young child: “Something’s wrong. He’s objecting to something, he needs something, …” but nobody would call the behavior “psychotic” . — Oh well, not yet at least… — But if the person is 50 years of age, for some reason, people don’t understand anymore, and what was a meaningful expression when the person was a young child of age, now all of a sudden is meaningless, “psychotic” behavior. Have you ever noticed that there often is something child-like to people labelled “psychotic”/”schizophrenic”, that they often actually do look younger than they are? If their looks aren’t destroyed by the drugs, that is.
Thanks Marian, for your thoughtful comment. I agree with you that if people haven’t successfully negotiated some developmental task, like establishing an identity separate from parents, they may still be trying to do it many years later. It seems to me that one of the key dynamics in psychosis is people going a little too “far out” in trying to establish their identity and point of view, then having that defined as an illness (instead of just a not-yet-successful attempt to do something valuable) so the attempt gets thwarted and any future attempts seem like just more illness – which leaves the person stuck.
When we understand what people are trying to do, we can often help them do it in a healthier way. This can be much more successful than just focusing on what is wrong about what they are doing and trying to suppress that.
June, you mentioned you have lots of support, and that’s good. But having someone to talk to who really understands the psychosocial aspects of psychosis may be something you are lacking, as many otherwise supportive people don’t understand those issues. So finding someone in your area who has expertise along those lines may be helpful.
Feb12adproof96 If i didnt smoke weed i wouldnt even be alive.i’d be dead of an ooesdvre or a bad kidney or some sh!t like that if i took all the pills my doctor subscribes me. LETS WORRY ABOUT THE PILLS. POWDERS.AND METH THE THINGS THAT AFFECT YOUR BODY AND MIND MUCH MUCH FASTER
I am 50 and suffering from schizo from more than 21 years. I am under consultant since 1990 and almost cure periodically. I have to visit him when I feel bad.
One thing I am still confused and want a great improvement that is my sex life with my wife. Although we have two daughters but we both are unsatisfied in sex. Please explain what we can do so that we can have a normal sex life or it is not possible with this disease.
THANKS
Hi Rajesh,
I wouldn’t want to try offering you specific advice, because everyone’s situation is unique, but I could offer a few general remarks about a schizophrenia diagnosis and sex. Emotional problems in general can interfere with good sex, so it is possible something emotional is getting in the way, and you might be able to figure that out, with a therapist’s help if available. Or a very likely possibility, if you are taking medications, is that the medications are having an impact on your sex life. These drug effects are discussed for example at http://www.healthyplace.com/sex/medications/antipsychotics-sexual-side-effects/menu-id-66/
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